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Will the streetcar make a Stranger stop? 11th Ave option reportedly enters mix – UPDATE

Just a few days before the first in a series of public forums to discuss three possible routes for the streetcar connecting Union Station and Capitol Hill’s future light rail station by way of First Hill, the Stranger is reporting yet another option is being added to the mix. The possible addition runs right under their noses:

The 11th Avenue segment would be:

* Northbound from Madison to Denny with the Two-Way Broadway option;

* Northbound from Union to Denny with the Boren option;

* Southbound from Denny to Union with the Broadway-12th couplet option.

The above comes from an e-mail sent to the Stranger by city streetcar planner Ethan Melone. The Stranger’s offices are located on 11th Ave near the 11th/Pine intersection. Across the street stands the old “Sun Electric” factory building set to be redeveloped as a mixed-use retail and housing project.

Tuesday night, the city and Sound Transit are holding the first of three meetings to discuss the streetcar project with the community. Tuesday’s meeting is at Seattle Central from 6-8 PM.

We’ll try to get more information from Melone on the specifics of how 11th Ave would fit into the routes Boren, Broadway and 12th/Broadway Couplet routes currently on the drawing board before Tuesday night’s meeting. Though the first public meeting is only days away, the city has yet to post the official ‘alignment alternatives’ to its First Hill Streetcar site. Here’s a simplified layout of the routes — and fuzzy purple 11th Ave mystery zone.

UPDATE:
Quick reply from Melone (gotta like that in your city officials!) below. He says drawings should be posted on the city site before Tuesday night’s meeting. We asked Melone for a clarification on how 11th would fit into the various plans on the table. We also asked him about where the potential 11th Ave segment would be dropping people off for the Capitol Hill light rail station.

For two-way Broadway, northbound on Broadway to Madison, EB Madison to 11th, NB 11th to Denny, WB Denny to Broadway. For Boren option, EB Seneca to Union, to 11th, to Denny to Broadway. For Broadway-12th couplet, NB Broadway to Denny, EB Denny to 11th, SB 11th to Union, EB Union to 11th. For all of these options, the stop at the Capitol Hill light rail station would be on Denny near the Nagle Place entrance. There would be another pair of stops serving the Pike/Pine corridor on Broadway and 11th.


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Tony Russo
Tony Russo
14 years ago

Seriously, twists, turns, corners, couplets. What’s wrong with a simple, straight, direct route? Here is a list of my concerns about 11th Ave in no particular order:

1.) Every extra corner requires you to slow down the 5-ton streetcar, turn 90 degrees and accelerate again. This 11th Ave loop ads 4 unnecessary turns to the streetcar and that increases travel times.

2.) Taking half the streetcar off of broadway makes the entire system harder to understand. Riders have to get on for the return trip at a different place from where they got off and separating the tracks undermines the visual cue that the tracks provide as to where the streetcar is going. This may sound insignificant for the experienced rider, but it will make the difference for a casual rider. The main point of streetcars over buses is that they attract NEW riders, i.e. people who aren’t used to riding the bus and aren’t used to the convoluted spiderweb of King County Metro. People need to feel comfortable in order to try a new thing, and every regular rider has to start as a first time rider. Make it confusing and a fair number of people will never try.

3.) Has anyone seriously thought about having a 5-ton streetcar traveling down 11th ave between pine and denny, or on denny between 11th and broadway? These are residential streets. Given how quiet streetcars are, you are just asking for an accident. Keep in mind the sun sets at 4:30 in the winter. That’s 8 hours of a 5-ton nearly silent streetcar traveling at 30 mph down a completely dark residential street. Of course they won’t actually run it at 30 mph because it would be impossibly dangerous to do so, thus adding more travel time.

4.) Activity follows the streetcar. Taking the streetcar off of Broadway, even 1/2 off Broadway undermines its ability to focus Broadway as a “main street” and center of activity.

5.) This loop, in adding travel time and additional turns militates against extending the streetcar to Aloha St, a long time priority for Capitol Hill.

6.) The final planning for TOD is nowhere near complete. One of the suggestions that came up in the design charrette was closing denny between 10th and Broadway entirely to vehicle traffic. Placing the streetcar on this street may conflict with as yet finished open space plans. It is unwise to close off our options before we’ve thought it through.

7.) Adam Parast has written a piece on the seattle transit blog arguing against the 12th ave loop on the grounds that separating the northbound and southbound stops by 3 blocks decreases the effective pedestrian shed of the streetcar. His article is available here: http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/09/12th-ave-streetcar-

While I take issue with certain parts of his analysis, particularly his assessment of development capacity along the two routes, his point about splitting the line is spot on. The same argument applies to 11th ave, except that unlike 12th, 11th is not a street we are TRYING to bring activity to.

seth jones
seth jones
14 years ago

this city has changed a great deal since I’ve been here the past 10 years, its growing and getting more expensive, people are moving here etc…i know first hill got a little screwed in the LR planning, but the time to make a proper decision is here. the 12th ave alignment, both NB and SB is the best idea. By the time it gets built, there will be plenty happening all up and down 12, plus it will be a very fast way up and down the hill, connecting CH FH ID and Amtrak and the transit tunnel–essentially our first truly intermodal zone. However FH and the hospitals def deserve something for their trouble..a direct shuttle to the new CH LINK station perhaps leaving every 15 minutes during peak times?

Mike with curls
Mike with curls
14 years ago

“Fred Hutch. deserves something for their trouble”

You are new arn’t you. Fred Hutch will dictate the route. Do a little research as to its vast funding, number of employees and big buildings on First Hill.

When the First Hill cabal makes its wishes known clearly, that is where the line goes.

The rest is smoke and mirrors. Interesting, but, just won’t happen this time down the line. NOW, the next build, without the money sitting at Sound Transit, that build might be up for grabs.

These conversations might be called community planning for later phases, so all is not wasted.

Mike

Are you saying?
Are you saying?
14 years ago

The planning for this project comes down to relieving Virginia Mason and other hospitals of having to pay for some of the costs of the transit that they currently provide to get their people to and from work? How much are they paying now and how much will they save if they can discontinue their payments? I hope the greater public benefit of this $120,000,000 investment isn’t trumped by the hospitals’ desire to shift some of their current transportation costs to the public.

CapHillMax
14 years ago

Nice comment. I just wanted to note, however, that Portland’s very successful streetcar network often separates northbound/southbound and westbound/eastbound routes by several blocks, with seemingly little impact on ridership. See for example, their NW Portland route westbound on Northrup and eastbound on Lovejoy (two blocks apart).

ZefWagner
ZefWagner
14 years ago

First Hill is already getting a “consolation prize” by getting a streetcar instead of a light rail station–you think they should now get an even worse one with bus shuttles? Now matter how much you think 12th avenue makes sense, it is not First Hill.

Tony Russo
Tony Russo
14 years ago

Portland is a horse of a different color. Their blocks are 200 feet apart compared to 300 for ours. Their streetcar also runs through downtown where every street is a “main street”. That is not the case here. Broadway is our primary retailing street while 11th (north of pine) is a quiet residential street.

ZefWagner
ZefWagner
14 years ago

I generally agree with you, but I also am a little worried about this becoming another big fight when it might not be a big enough deal to get worked up about. I agree wholeheartedly with the first 2 points. The 3rd is a bit iffy–the streetcar will have to go slowly, but it’s only 3 blocks we’re talking about. It also honestly would be nice to have the streetcar go around the park–not necessary, but nice. 4 and 5 I also agree with. Your 6th point is important, but I think if designed right you could have the streetcar go through a pedestrian plaza right there. Portland has a section of streetcar that goes through a pedestrian area of the Portland State campus and it works really well. I think we should just emphasize at the forums that Denny between Nagle and Broadway should be closed to cars. The 7th point is not so big of a deal, because it is 2 level blocks instead of 3 blocks with a hill, and also (assuming no 12th avenue alignment) the section in question is so small and at one end of the line that separating directions isn’t so big of a deal. Anyway, I also think 2-way on Broadway makes the most sense, but this may not be worth another big fight.

CapHillMax
14 years ago

@Russo. The Portland streetcar also runs several blocks apart through the NW Portland residential areas, so not every street it runs on is in or like downtown Portland. So you can make an apples to apples comparison.

Traevynn
Traevynn
14 years ago

Fred Hutchinson’s buildings are located on South Lake Union and already have streetcar access – limited as it may be. Swedish, Virginia Mason, PacMed and Harborview hang out on First Hill and nearby neighborhoods. Don’t forget the numerous medical buildings and clinics that also call “Pill Hill” home.

Jonathan Dubman
14 years ago

The north terminus of Broadway was promised a station in the original 1996 Sound Transit plan passed by the voters. Both that station and the one at First Hill were cut and this streetcar is the not-really-equivalent replacement.

Why would we cut off four of the most important commercial blocks of Broadway from this new streetcar line? There’s lots of growth (ongoing) in that area, and potential for more. Businesses could use the visibility the streetcar would bring. It should be possible to walk the length of Broadway and take the streetcar back. How many reasons do we need?

It’s certainly possible to run a streetcar line down Broadway. The entire bus route 49 used to be a streetcar all the way to the U District. I think the tracks may still be under the pavement. If we have to move a pipe or two, so be it.

Circling around the park adds 1300 feet of track we should be using to extend the line further north.

Jonathan Dubman
14 years ago

Both as-built and zoned density is tremendously higher west of Broadway than it is to the east. Those hospitals have a huge number of jobs per square foot, and a lot of square feet.

Even if 12th Ave. were lined with new development that maxes out the potential building envelopes, you’d never approach the density of the heart of First Hill. Either the Broadway or Boren alignments could serve the major employment and residential density on First Hill reasonably well, but the 12th Ave. alignnment, for all of the benefits it might confer there, does not.

Rev Smith
Rev Smith
14 years ago

@cap hill max: Phoenix, San Fran & even New Orleans all have small loops in their streetcar alignments. One thing in common: the loops are never more than 2 blocks apart, and rarely longer than 6 blocks before joining into one line again. I think this is important to emulate.

Rev Smith
Rev Smith
14 years ago

I think ‘catlady on STB put it nicely when she (paraphrasing) said: “First Hill’s been working its ass off to lobby for this streetcar, help plan its alignment, and work with SDOT for months now and make sure it wasn’t dropped in the name of ‘other expenses’ or ‘timeline concerns’ …Or moved to 12th. Where the hell were you cap hill folks? If y’all want a streetcar to Aloha, it seems fair you should find funding and then fight for it as hard as we had to.”
(wildly inaccurate paraphrase there, sorry)
I don’t think it’s nice, and its arguably fair, but she’s right that the community is ultimately responsible for spurring the city to make a thing like this happen. Where’s the popular movement? The funding ideas? CHCC has been busy paying Bellevue for a logo we all hate perhaps, but streetcar lobbying, maybe not so much (as FH).

Besides… a) FHIA is a very efficient machine. They are very much “let’s get business done”. Have you seen 8th lately??? That was ONE of their board’s VP’s (Jim) that made that happen.
And the major players in FHIA are part of much larger ‘businesses’ than the dinky corner shops (99 cent stores, bead shops, faux-goth fashion – …I’m looking at you) and fad-of-the-moment restaurants (read: all the dessert joints) that make up much of our retail district. First Hill has old businesses (much more than the 3 you’re thinking of) with ,say, Asst. Operations Directors, FFS.
b) SDOT (“does not =” ) Santa Claus.

Rev Smith
Rev Smith
14 years ago

Are you referring to the shuttle vans that move hospital workers from the sounder to First Hill?

If so, please explain: getting more vans and cars off the road (and getting hundreds of people as instant ridership) is a bad thing … how?